An Interview With Fotis Georgiadis
Be guided by stands: A position is against something — a negative reaction to something we don’t agree with. A stand is for something and generates more positive, sustainable energy.
As part of our series about the “Five Things You Need To Be A Highly Effective Leader During Turbulent Times”, we had the pleasure of interviewing Peter Docker, author of Leading From The Jumpseat.
Everyone is capable of accomplishing extraordinary things. If you share this belief, then Peter Docker’s new book was written for you. Leading from the Jumpseat is a metaphor for how we can choose to lead. In business and in life, handing over the reins to others is inevitable. Everyone will eventually leave their team, retire from being the CEO, or see their kids leave home and lead their own lives. Leading from the Jumpseat enables us to embrace this inevitability. Leading from the Jumpseat is a metaphor for how we can choose to lead. It’s about the journey we take so we can hand over control to others, who are then equipped to continue forward.
Peter Docker, co-author of Find Your Why (translated into more than 25 languages and with over 460,000 copies sold) and formerly a founding Igniter at Simon Sinek Inc., delivers the powerful message that leadership is about lifting people up and giving them the space they need so that, when the time is right, they can take the lead.
Drawing on his 25-year career in the Royal Air Force, and over 14 years spent partnering with businesses around the world, Peter’s goal is to inspire others to Lead from the Jumpseat. Jumpseat Leadership is a way of interacting with people that will enhance performance in any given situation — during normal business, times of crisis, and life in general. Becoming a Jumpseat Leader takes practice and Leading from the Jumpseat is your practical guide to handing over control.
Peter’s career has spanned from professional pilot to leading aviation training, teaching postgraduates at the United Kingdom’s Defence College, to flying the British prime minister around the world. Peter has also led multibillion-dollar international procurement projects and served as a crisis manager and former international negotiator for the UK government.
Thank you so much for your time! I know that you are a very busy person. Our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you tell us a bit about your ‘backstory’ and how you got started?
I feel incredibly fortunate to have traveled to over 90 countries, so far, and met so many people of different cultures, backgrounds and perspectives. This started when, in my early twenties, I became a pilot in the Royal Air Force, literally flying myself around the world. At the age of 25 I was one of the few pilots selected to fly the British prime minister.
I progressed well in the air force, being promoted to the senior rank of group captain (full colonel). Along the way I was given command of a squadron, led people during the 2003 Iraq war, taught leadership at the UK’s Defence College, negotiated with the Russians on behalf of NATO, and was an executive on the board of the largest military base in the UK. After almost 25 years’ service though, I felt I could contribute more in the commercial world. I joined a consultancy that taught leadership and transformed cultures in high-risk industries, such as oil & gas, construction and mining.
Another change came when I had the opportunity to work alongside Simon Sinek where I became one of his founding ‘Igniters’, presenting and facilitating around the world to help share his messages. During that time, I worked with some of the largest companies on the planet in almost every sector. The highlight was co-authoring the book, Find Your Why, with Simon and David Mead. In December 2019, I stepped away from Simon to concentrate more on bringing together everything I had learned over my different careers, and the lessons from working with leadership teams across the world. The result is my latest book, Leading From The Jumpseat — a ‘how-to’ guide to creating extraordinary opportunities by handing over control. I now present and teach the practices of Jumpseat Leadership to companies who want to use the techniques to accelerate their performance and ensure a sustainable future for their businesses.
Can you share a story about the funniest mistake you made when you were first starting? Can you tell us what lessons or ‘take aways’ you learned from that?
It was 9th April 1988, I was 25 years old, and I had the task of flying the British government’s foreign secretary, Sir Geoffrey Howe, from Singapore to Brunei. While I had my hands on the controls of the aircraft for this flight, the captain in overall charge was the very experienced pilot Squadron Leader Jimmy Jewell. This was an important diplomatic visit and our aircraft had been equipped with VIP seats, fine china and crystal glassware. The extra cabin crew on board would deliver a first-class service to Sir Geoffrey, his team, and around a dozen press reporters who had paid handsomely to have the opportunity to follow events as they happened.
It was vitally important on trips such as these for the crew to ensure the flight landed on time. We focused on what was known as a doors time — the time at which we would arrive at the destination, stop the aircraft alongside the red carpet, shut down the engines and open the passenger door. This was done to the second. Doors time was more than just professional pride. If we arrived early, we could embarrass the host nation whose welcoming party might not be ready. If we arrived late, it could be seen as a diplomatic slight. The crew worked hard behind the scenes to achieve doors time, taking satisfaction in making it smooth and seamless for the passengers.
On this occasion we were working harder than usual. Air traffic control had delayed our departure from Singapore, and now we were running late. I flew the approach to Brunei airport at a much higher speed than usual — something we practised frequently. However, for a number of reasons (all of which I explain in my book Leading from the Jumpseat), it didn’t work out quite as I had planned and, rather than arriving like a graceful swan, I was forced to touch down heavily, followed by some harsh braking. To my horror, all I could hear through the flight deck door was the sound of smashing china and glassware as the strain of the landing caused it to spill out of the storage lockers and onto the galley floor. I knew I’d messed-up. I’d turned our graceful swan into an ugly duckling. I felt hugely embarrassed.
There were several ways Jimmy Jewell could have reacted to this situation. As the captain of the aircraft, it was his reputation on the line. It would have been understandable for him to have admonished me and ensured I didn’t get my hands on the controls again for the rest of the trip. But he could see I was upset with myself. I had let him, and the rest of the crew, down. I knew the error I’d made — he didn’t need to make it worse by lecturing me. So, instead, he took it as an opportunity to build me back up. After Sir Geoffrey and the passengers had departed, he smiled and gave me some banter about how there was no doubting that we had landed. He then left me in control of the aircraft to move it to a remote parking spot while he went to speak to air traffic control about the next day’s departure. As he left the flight deck he turned and said, “Oh, and I’d like you to fly the aircraft tomorrow from here to Bahrain.”
When I look back at this event, I chuckle to myself. No one was hurt — it was just my ego that was dented. But importantly, what I learned is that, as a leader, whenever someone on our team makes a mistake, we have a choice. We can react in a way that has them spiral down, lose their confidence, and take a long time to recover. Or, we can choose to see the moment as an opportunity to help that person to learn and spiral up.
None of us are able to achieve success without some help along the way. Is there a particular person who you are grateful towards who helped get you to where you are? Can you share a story?
There are many people who have helped me along the way, especially my wife Claire who, for over 33 years, has supported me during the highs and lows of this life adventure. However, there is another person who gave me a remarkable opportunity, a chap by the name of Simon Sinek.
Since the early part of 2012, I had got to know, and had been coaching, some of the members of Simon’s team. Simon was becoming well known following his famous TED talk, Start With Why, and the best-selling book by the same name. Later that year, Simon was passing through London and we arranged to meet, for the first time, at the Royal Air Force Club for breakfast. We sat down in the elegant dining room with views over Green Park, and we started talking. Indeed, we talked so much that we hardly ate anything. I’m sure we could have continued chatting, animatedly, for the rest of the day, but Simon had other commitments, so less than an hour later we had to bid each other farewell.
That first meeting was quite short, but what happened next was one of the greatest acts of trust I have ever experienced. Shortly afterwards, Simon asked me to work with him to deliver keynote talks on his behalf, helping to share his message of Start With Why around the world. He was entrusting me with his brand and lifting me up. What made this act of trust particularly remarkable was that he had never seen me deliver a talk. Indeed, the first time he saw me speak live was when we were on tour together in Australia in February 2017. I remember asking him then what caused him to extend the trust he’d shown five years earlier. “It just felt right”, he replied.
I’ll always be grateful for the opportunity Simon gave to me and the extraordinary experiences that have since unfolded.
Extensive research suggests that “purpose driven businesses” are more successful in many areas. When your company started, what was its vision, what was its purpose?
I formed my own company in 2007 and it has always been purpose led. I currently express that as ‘To lift others up and enable them to be extraordinary.’ It gives me the chills when I see people overcoming challenges and excelling in what they do — especially when it is in service of others. My focus is on those within my team, lifting them up so as they can grow, build their capability and feel fulfilled in what they do. My aim is that, when I eventually take a step back from business, there will be those in my team who will want to carry forward what we’ve created.
Thank you for all that. Let’s now turn to the main focus of our discussion. Can you share with our readers a story from your own experience about how you lead your team during uncertain or difficult times?
Many of us, including my own team, have been faced with uncertain and difficult times over the past couple of years. However, for me, one of the most extreme leadership situations was back in 2003.
I was in the middle of my career as an officer in the Royal Air Force and in February of 2003 I was deployed to the Middle East as the British Force Commander for air-refuelling operations during what became known as the Iraq War. I had under my care almost 200 pilots, aircrew, maintenance engineers and support personnel who looked towards me to lead them. There was much uncertainty and difficulty: a controversial political backdrop; lack of equipment; the complexity of a multinational coalition, and the challenge that came with the need to have my crews fly large, undefended, unarmed aircraft into a hostile environment.
Thankfully, most of us are not routinely faced with situations where our life is on the line, but in business, we may still sense our livelihood, status or reputation are threatened. When this occurs, we can use the same key practices of Jumpseat Leadership.
First, we need to identify the ‘signal’ from the ‘noise’. Often, and particularly during times of uncertainty, there is so much going on it’s very difficult to have everyone focused on the mission. There’s too much distraction. Our task as leaders is to identify what is truly important and have our team ‘tune-in’. The message needs to be simple and clear, and is most powerful when it is connected to those deeply important things that drive us — our ‘non-negotiables’ or stands. For my team during the Iraq War, our focus was on the lives of others who wore similar uniforms to us, and depended on us doing our job. If we failed, those people would die — it was that simple.
Secondly, we need to become adept at loading when we don’t know the answer. By the time we get to formally lead a team, we have likely been rewarded for being the one who knows the answer to the problems we face. It’s usually how we get promoted. Ironically, that conditioning becomes a limitation during times of uncertainty — times when we don’t know the answer. It can feel deeply uncomfortable, but if we are to progress, we need to overcome that feeling since it will otherwise hold us back. We need to let go of ego. The opportunity is to relate to our ‘not knowing’ as a strength. We do this by focusing on the context — providing clarity of what we need to accomplish and why it is important — and then holding the space for those on our team to step up and help learn our way through to the solution. Rather than being the one with the answer, we ask the important questions that help us tap into the collective genius of our team.
These — and the other practices of Jumpseat Leadership — can be learned.
Did you ever consider giving up? Where did you get the motivation to continue through your challenges? What sustains your drive?
No. I didn’t want to let my people down. The motivation and drive came from the commitment I had made to others — those people who were relying on me, and my team, to do our job.
Our drive to continue forward is most powerful when it comes from the love for something, rather than the fear of something.
What would you say is the most critical role of a leader during challenging times?
To maintain clarity around our commitment, to frame the important questions with the humility to listen, and to nurture a sense of belonging for the team.
When the future seems so uncertain, what is the best way to boost morale? What can a leader do to inspire, motivate and engage their team?
During uncertain times, everyone responds better — and has greater resiliency — when they feel they belong. This sense of belonging starts with providing clarity around what we’re working together to achieve, the reason it matters, and enabling people to connect with how they can contribute. All of this can be captured under the heading of ‘Caring’. When, as a leader, we show that we care, not only for what we’re trying to achieve, but importantly, for each of our people, they will step up and contribute more.
As part of this, it falls to anyone who chooses to lead, to be the guardian of hope. Hope is an unshakeable belief that there will be ‘an after’. Hope is not dependent on a timescale to exist and, while it’s grounded in our current reality and circumstances, we maintain our focus on what can be.
What is the best way to communicate difficult news to one’s team and customers?
Having difficult conversations is a skill that takes practise. Taking the time beforehand to think through the different scenarios of how people might react is essential if we care about the outcome and our relationship with others. Even then, we can’t always predict what will happen — people and human relationships are complex, and what works well on one occasion, may not on another.
Despite this, the outcome is always better if we are guided by our stands — those things that are deeply important to us as an individual or organization. When we act consistently with our stands, it builds trust and respect — even if the other party doesn’t agree with the actions we’ve taken.
Immediately before the start of the 2003 Iraq war, I needed to tell my people that insufficient supplies meant that not everyone could have the personal equipment that would protect them from a biological or chemical attack. I told them directly, gave the context, explained who would have priority and why, and what I would do to protect those without the necessary kit. While everyone may not have been happy, they could understand the decision I had taken was based on my stands. Trust and mutual respect were maintained, and they quickly got back to being focused on our mission.
How can a leader make plans when the future is so unpredictable?
The future is always unpredictable, and we never have 100% of the information we think we need. Firstly, any plan is better than no plan. The best plans are those that are formed around key guiding principles, connected to those things that are deeply important to us (our stands), and are focused on an outcome that we are personally committed to achieve. How we get there is less important. It’s like running up a mountain: the way to do it is not to stand at the bottom looking up at the daunting task ahead of us. Instead, we need to visualize what it looks and feels like to be standing at the top of the mountain as if we have already accomplished the task. An emotional connection is vital: the more we can viscerally connect to that moment of completion, the more powerful the drive to get there will be. What path we will have taken to get there becomes less important. As leaders, our job is to share that visualization with those on our team since, with that clear picture in front of them, they can then figure out the path we need to take.
It’s like being a parent: when our first child is born we might have little idea of how we’re going to overcome all the challenges of raising them, but we have absolute commitment to seeing them thriving and what that might look like. As our son or daughter grows, we learn to ask the important questions of them, listen as they figure out what’s important to them, and together we will learn our way through to what we’re all trying to achieve — a happy and thriving adult.
Is there a “number one principle” that can help guide a company through the ups and downs of turbulent times?
Nurture a sense of belonging for our people. Together we will find a way through.
Can you share 3 or 4 of the most common mistakes you have seen other businesses make during difficult times? What should one keep in mind to avoid that?
- During difficult times when we sense our livelihood, status or reputation is on the line, a common mistake I’ve seen is for senior leaders to tighten their grip of control. That’s a sign that fear is kicking in, often showing up as ego. Unfortunately, when we do this, it leads to people on our team becoming disengaged and feeling unempowered, waiting to be told what to do rather than stepping up to be part of the solution. As leaders our focus should be on the context of what we’re trying to achieve, and support our people so as they have what they need to help find the answers.
- With fear at the helm, there is often a tendency for decisions to be made that are increasingly focused on the short term. This can show up, for example, as letting key people go based almost entirely on financial imperatives. While difficult decisions may need to be taken, it’s important to look ‘beyond the immediate hill’ and ensure that any choices we take now don’t jeopardize our ability to make the most of opportunities when there is an upturn in the marketplace. It is not always possible, for example, to re-hire skilled people at short notice.
- When the pressure is on, it’s easy for senior leaders to become so entrenched in detail (often disempowering others by micro-managing), that they lose sight of the big picture — the reason the business exists in the first place. If senior leaders aren’t keeping people connected to the purpose of the organization, it’s unlikely that anyone else will be. That’s when the soul of the team diminishes and, along with it, creativity and innovation. Once again, a key role for the senior in a company is to keep the context of the business alive. Context is what gives meaning to the work we do.
- Another symptom of fear becoming the driver in difficult times is when senior leadership become dogmatic in their approach. In other words, they stick rigidly to what they know, staying in their comfort zone of control. This approach closes down the likelihood of fresh ideas emerging that could help overcome the problems they face. We can guard against this by reminding ourselves to stay curious and, in so doing, we will foster the humility we need to prevent dogma becoming an issue.
Generating new business, increasing your profits, or at least maintaining your financial stability can be challenging during good times, even more so during turbulent times. Can you share some of the strategies you use to keep forging ahead and not lose growth traction during a difficult economy?
Practice Jumpseat Leadership: be clear on the commitments we’re making and the context for the work we do as a business; inoculate against ego by choosing humble confidence to drive us — confident in our ability and resolute in where we’re heading, while having the humility to listen and tap into the collective genius of our team; and nurture a sense of belonging in our people by showing that we care for them as individuals and giving them the framework and opportunity to play their part in finding a way forward.
Here is the primary question of our discussion. Based on your experience and success, what are the five most important things a business leader should do to lead effectively during uncertain and turbulent times? Please share a story or an example for each.
- Be guided by stands: A position is against something — a negative reaction to something we don’t agree with. A stand is for something and generates more positive, sustainable energy.
- Find strength in “not knowing”: When we embrace leading when we don’t know the answer to the challenges we face, our progress is no longer limited by our own individual knowledge. We begin to relish the opportunity of the next unsolved challenge because we’re confident we can lead our team to figure it out.
- Choose integrity over authenticity: When we are being ourselves, one could say we’re being authentic. As leaders we need to be aware of how our reactions to situations can affect others, and apply a filter. That filter is integrity.
- Be a guardian of hope: Hope is a powerful force — an enduring belief that there will be an “after”, no matter how dire our current situation. Hope can be difficult to quantify, although we all know when we have it, as sure as we know when we don’t.
- Nurture a sense of belonging: When people choose to take responsibility for their work and actions, we call that ownership. People will make this choice, and contribute more, when they experience a sense of belonging.
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?
“Whether you believe you can or you can’t, you’re right.” This quote from Henry Ford has nudged me onward whenever I’ve had doubts about stepping into the unknown.
How can our readers further follow your work?
I can be found via my website, www.leadingfromthejumpseat.com,
Click the link below to get your copy of, Leading from the Jumpseat: How to Create Extraordinary Opportunity by Handing Over Control https://smarturl.it/gypw4g
Following me on:
LinkedIn — linkedin.com/in/peterdocker
Twitter — @peterdocker
Instagram: @peterdocker
Thank you so much for sharing these important insights. We wish you continued success and good health!
Author Peter Docker: Five Things You Need To Be A Highly Effective Leader During Turbulent Times was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.
